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	<title>Comments on: moving past two-mindedness</title>
	<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/</link>
	<description>Danya Ruttenberg's website</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Danya Ruttenberg &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Happy Chanukah!</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-131564</link>
		<dc:creator>Danya Ruttenberg &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Happy Chanukah!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-131564</guid>
		<description>[...] The Journal piece is here. And yes, it's an adapted version of a post that made its debut on this very page&#8211;for those of you who'd like to see the 1/3 longer director's cut (with 800 bonus words about Biblical Criticism! Whoo!), it's here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] The Journal piece is here. And yes, it&#8217;s an adapted version of a post that made its debut on this very page&#8211;for those of you who&#8217;d like to see the 1/3 longer director&#8217;s cut (with 800 bonus words about Biblical Criticism! Whoo!), it&#8217;s here. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Danya</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-599</link>
		<dc:creator>Danya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-599</guid>
		<description>P.S. The gemara on Hanukah is Amoraic, not Tanaaitic.  How do we know this?  Mai Hanukah?  It's written in Aramaic!  Which is not the language of the Mishnah, as the Mishnah is in Hebrew.  Aramaic like that is totally from Bavel.  Even if you DO accept Mishnah M'Sinai (and yes of course there's an ancient oral tradition, duh, it's just a question of where you think it comes from), the great minds commenting on the Mishnah later, in galus, from Bavel, are attempting to interpret the oral tradition.  Not (except when they cite baraitot, which anyone who's studied gemara can tell you, do not always agree with each other any more than mishnayot or halakhot within a mishnah always do).  To assume that amoraic gemara is from Sinai--well, see my other comment about machlokot.  God has a lot of clarifying to do, if that's the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. The gemara on Hanukah is Amoraic, not Tanaaitic.  How do we know this?  Mai Hanukah?  It&#8217;s written in Aramaic!  Which is not the language of the Mishnah, as the Mishnah is in Hebrew.  Aramaic like that is totally from Bavel.  Even if you DO accept Mishnah M&#8217;Sinai (and yes of course there&#8217;s an ancient oral tradition, duh, it&#8217;s just a question of where you think it comes from), the great minds commenting on the Mishnah later, in galus, from Bavel, are attempting to interpret the oral tradition.  Not (except when they cite baraitot, which anyone who&#8217;s studied gemara can tell you, do not always agree with each other any more than mishnayot or halakhot within a mishnah always do).  To assume that amoraic gemara is from Sinai&#8211;well, see my other comment about machlokot.  God has a lot of clarifying to do, if that&#8217;s the case.</p>
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		<title>By: Danya</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-598</link>
		<dc:creator>Danya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-598</guid>
		<description>As to the claim that the, uh, m'Sinai Rabbinic tradition included a tradition about Hanukah--well, besides the fact that it implies a theology of predestination to which I simply cannot and do not ascribe, namely that God knew and taught about the Hasmonean wars before human beings used their God-given free will to get themselves embroiled in it... besides all that, I will simply have to part ways with the assumption that the oral tradition later preserved in mishnayot and baraitot were perfect, unchanging, and davka given at Sinai.  I accept oral law as authoritative, and I am every inch a Rabbinic Jew, as well as a halakhic one... but the anti-intellectual approach which implies that every word found in the Talmud--or the Mishnah, even, was taught at Sinai, it just doesn't make any sense.  Why does the Mishnah preserve machloket (dispute)?  Why does the Mishnah preserve machloket in different individual's names?  They may have had different traditionS, or they may have been poskening halakha, or some combination of things.  But if the Oral Torah were really that pure and untaintedly Divine word (I believe it's Divine wisdom, as filtered through human interpretation, but I don't think it's clear, or obvious) there would  be no machlokot, wouldn't there?  What God wanted from us would be clear?  Whereas it's never been, anywhere in the rabbinic tradition, unequivocably clear.  There are something like 5000 machlokot in the gemara, with only 50 resolved on the page.  With the unresolved ones, how do we know for sure what God wants of us?  Later poskim go through and decide what they think the right answer is, but--it's all human beings trying the best they can to discern Divine will.  Very different than having a answer key straight from God Godself.  If someone believes differently, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. 

So yeah, I don't believe that the Phariseac/Rabbinic tradition is the "true" one repressed by the Hasmoneans.  There's just no bloody evidence for that, anywhere in the texts themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to the claim that the, uh, m&#8217;Sinai Rabbinic tradition included a tradition about Hanukah&#8211;well, besides the fact that it implies a theology of predestination to which I simply cannot and do not ascribe, namely that God knew and taught about the Hasmonean wars before human beings used their God-given free will to get themselves embroiled in it&#8230; besides all that, I will simply have to part ways with the assumption that the oral tradition later preserved in mishnayot and baraitot were perfect, unchanging, and davka given at Sinai.  I accept oral law as authoritative, and I am every inch a Rabbinic Jew, as well as a halakhic one&#8230; but the anti-intellectual approach which implies that every word found in the Talmud&#8211;or the Mishnah, even, was taught at Sinai, it just doesn&#8217;t make any sense.  Why does the Mishnah preserve machloket (dispute)?  Why does the Mishnah preserve machloket in different individual&#8217;s names?  They may have had different traditionS, or they may have been poskening halakha, or some combination of things.  But if the Oral Torah were really that pure and untaintedly Divine word (I believe it&#8217;s Divine wisdom, as filtered through human interpretation, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s clear, or obvious) there would  be no machlokot, wouldn&#8217;t there?  What God wanted from us would be clear?  Whereas it&#8217;s never been, anywhere in the rabbinic tradition, unequivocably clear.  There are something like 5000 machlokot in the gemara, with only 50 resolved on the page.  With the unresolved ones, how do we know for sure what God wants of us?  Later poskim go through and decide what they think the right answer is, but&#8211;it&#8217;s all human beings trying the best they can to discern Divine will.  Very different than having a answer key straight from God Godself.  If someone believes differently, we&#8217;ll have to agree to disagree on this. </p>
<p>So yeah, I don&#8217;t believe that the Phariseac/Rabbinic tradition is the &#8220;true&#8221; one repressed by the Hasmoneans.  There&#8217;s just no bloody evidence for that, anywhere in the texts themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Danya</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-597</link>
		<dc:creator>Danya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-597</guid>
		<description>I addressed the Sukkot issue in another comment--there's no reason to have continued a celebration called "Hanukah" the following year if it was just the delayed Sukkot--they would have celebrated Sukkot on time and not anything in December in that case. As for the Temple, according to Melachim Alef and Divrei Hayamim, the dedication was 14 days. I Kings 8:65-66: "Solomon and Israel... observed the feast at that time before God, seven days and again seven days, fourteen days in all. On the Eighth day he let the people go", meaning day 8 wasn't part of the celebration--it was pretty explicitly either 7 or 14. 

As for where I learned about Greek battle stuff, it came from a seminar with Dr. Shaye Cohen, noted scholar of Hellenistic Judaism, when I was at Brown (he's at Harvard now, though--study with him if you can).  If you don't hold by him, you don't.  I do.

I find it fascinating that people have been coming to nitpick with me about the tangental factiods of this historical event rather than addressing the heart of what I'm trying to say, which is all based on Jewish tradition and a book found in the Septuagint (that is to say, Maccabees.) Fight with one tiny fact thrown in the corner of the essay and you successfully deny that there's a problem with the theological bigger picture? Not so easy.

In any case, if I don't answer everybody's textual objections about everything, it's not necessarily because I don't have any response, but rather because I don't have time. Just to put that out there. Keep commenting, people, and I'll do the best that I can with the time that I have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I addressed the Sukkot issue in another comment&#8211;there&#8217;s no reason to have continued a celebration called &#8220;Hanukah&#8221; the following year if it was just the delayed Sukkot&#8211;they would have celebrated Sukkot on time and not anything in December in that case. As for the Temple, according to Melachim Alef and Divrei Hayamim, the dedication was 14 days. I Kings 8:65-66: &#8220;Solomon and Israel&#8230; observed the feast at that time before God, seven days and again seven days, fourteen days in all. On the Eighth day he let the people go&#8221;, meaning day 8 wasn&#8217;t part of the celebration&#8211;it was pretty explicitly either 7 or 14. </p>
<p>As for where I learned about Greek battle stuff, it came from a seminar with Dr. Shaye Cohen, noted scholar of Hellenistic Judaism, when I was at Brown (he&#8217;s at Harvard now, though&#8211;study with him if you can).  If you don&#8217;t hold by him, you don&#8217;t.  I do.</p>
<p>I find it fascinating that people have been coming to nitpick with me about the tangental factiods of this historical event rather than addressing the heart of what I&#8217;m trying to say, which is all based on Jewish tradition and a book found in the Septuagint (that is to say, Maccabees.) Fight with one tiny fact thrown in the corner of the essay and you successfully deny that there&#8217;s a problem with the theological bigger picture? Not so easy.</p>
<p>In any case, if I don&#8217;t answer everybody&#8217;s textual objections about everything, it&#8217;s not necessarily because I don&#8217;t have any response, but rather because I don&#8217;t have time. Just to put that out there. Keep commenting, people, and I&#8217;ll do the best that I can with the time that I have.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam J. Bernay, The Radical Rabbi of the Right</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-596</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam J. Bernay, The Radical Rabbi of the Right</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2006 12:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-596</guid>
		<description>I've read that Hannukah was declared as eight days for two reasons: 1) it was modeled on the original dedication festival for Solomon's Temple and 2) because the Temple had not been made ready by Sukkot and it was an attempt to have a substitute for that holiday in that year, and commemorate that in successive years.  This part about being modeled after Greek victory celebrations is news to me.  Can you explain where that explanation is drawn from and comment on these alternate theories?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read that Hannukah was declared as eight days for two reasons: 1) it was modeled on the original dedication festival for Solomon&#8217;s Temple and 2) because the Temple had not been made ready by Sukkot and it was an attempt to have a substitute for that holiday in that year, and commemorate that in successive years.  This part about being modeled after Greek victory celebrations is news to me.  Can you explain where that explanation is drawn from and comment on these alternate theories?</p>
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		<title>By: thanbo</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-595</link>
		<dc:creator>thanbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-595</guid>
		<description>I'd take anything said by R' Avigdor Miller a"h with a grain of salt.  He was highly regarded here in Flatbush, but his approach towards secular culture was not particularly conciliatory.  Anyone with even a high school background in biology and chemistry would probably have that reaction to, e.g., his "Rejoice O Youth", a defense of creationism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d take anything said by R&#8217; Avigdor Miller a&#8221;h with a grain of salt.  He was highly regarded here in Flatbush, but his approach towards secular culture was not particularly conciliatory.  Anyone with even a high school background in biology and chemistry would probably have that reaction to, e.g., his &#8220;Rejoice O Youth&#8221;, a defense of creationism.</p>
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		<title>By: ac</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-594</link>
		<dc:creator>ac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-594</guid>
		<description>&lt;B&gt;The genuine tradition of Israel&lt;/B&gt;, preserved in the Oral Law, 
explains the true nature of the Hannukah celebration. "What is Hannukah? (RSHI: For which miracle was it instituted?) The Sages taught .... A miracle took place and they kindled the Menorah from it (from the vessel of oil) for eight days" (Shabbos 21 B). The miracle of the lights was the central cause of celebration; for the battles were by no means finished, for soon afterward the power went over to the Hellenisers entirely, after the death of Judah the Maccabbee, and the worst part of the Shmad commenced, followed by 25 years of war. It is thus clear that the celebration of Hannukah was not because of any victory, but because of their rejoicing at the demonstration of the Shechinah in their midst. 
The episode of the miracle of Hannukah "was not permitted to be written" (Yoma 29 A). It is certain that none of the Sages ever mentioned the book of the Hasmoneans (the book of the Maccabbees); and this book has not been in the hands of our nation throughout the past two millenia. It was illegal for loyal Jews to have any public writings other than the Scriptures. All secular narratives were forbidden as "outside books" (Sefarim Hitzonim)  (Sanhedrin 90 A), and no sacred writing other than the 24 books of the Scriptures  was permitted. It was forbidden to write even prayer-books (Shabbos 115 B), and there is no mention of a written Mishnah or Talmud until the days of the Rabbanan Savorai, after the last of the Amoraim. All historical narrative was contained in the Oral Tradition in the form of carefully-memorized Baraisas, of which a number are found in the Talmud and other compilations, such as Seder Olam and Mid­rashim; but, like all the Oral Tradition, this had been forbidden to put into writing. Even Josephtus states: "We do not possess an unlimited number of books among us ... but only the books of the Scriptures" (Contra Apion I, 8), and he states: "Every one is not permitted of his own accord to be a writer" (ibid. I, 7). Josephus wrote his own books not for the Jews (vid. Jos. Vita 76). The book of Hasmoneans (including II Hasmoneans) was therefore certainly not composed by any of the Sages or their disciples (who were always the majority of the nation, as testified even by Josephus-Antig. XIII, 10, 5; XIII, 10,6). 

The narrative of the book of Hasmoneans concludes soon 
after the period of Jochanan Hyrcanus (I Hasmoneans 17: 25 ). Since it goes no further, it obviously was composed at that time (for if it were merely a chronicle of the Syrian wars, it did not need to include the history of Jochanan Hytcanus). This demonstrates that it was written under the regime of the Sadduccee-Hasmonean rulers, of whom Jochanan Hyrcanus was the first; and the writer was under their dominion. Because the Sadduccee regime of Jochanan Hyrcanus forbade the practice of all Rabbinic laws and inflicted punishment (in some instances death) upon those who observed these laws (Antiq. XIII, 10, 6), the writer was careful to omit any mention of the Rabbinical law of kindling the Hannukah lamp. He could therefore make no mention of the miracle of the Menorah which the entire nation knew as the occasion for this Rabbinical law. The practice of Hannukah was not repressed, although it was a Rabbinical edict, for it was the memorial of the glory of the Hasmonean family and the sole justification of their authority. Josephus, who followed the Sadduccee chronicles throughout, also omitted the miracle of the Menorah; but he could not brush off the fact that the entire nation kindled the Hannukah lamps, and he therefore mentions the festival called Lights (Antiq. XII, 7, 7). He gives a lame explanation: "I suppose the reason (for this name of Lights) was because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us" (ibid.). 
Despite the attempts of the Sadduccees to suppress the 
fame of the miracle of the Menorah and the practice of the Mitzvah, the Sages and the nation made every attempt to publicize this miracle; and the universal practice of the people was to kindle the Hannukah lamps at the gates of their homes, in the public thoroughfare (Shabbos 22 A; Bava Kama 62 B). 
from "Tzur Hate-udah" by Avigdor Miller</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>The genuine tradition of Israel</b>, preserved in the Oral Law,<br />
explains the true nature of the Hannukah celebration. &#8220;What is Hannukah? (RSHI: For which miracle was it instituted?) The Sages taught &#8230;. A miracle took place and they kindled the Menorah from it (from the vessel of oil) for eight days&#8221; (Shabbos 21 B). The miracle of the lights was the central cause of celebration; for the battles were by no means finished, for soon afterward the power went over to the Hellenisers entirely, after the death of Judah the Maccabbee, and the worst part of the Shmad commenced, followed by 25 years of war. It is thus clear that the celebration of Hannukah was not because of any victory, but because of their rejoicing at the demonstration of the Shechinah in their midst.<br />
The episode of the miracle of Hannukah &#8220;was not permitted to be written&#8221; (Yoma 29 A). It is certain that none of the Sages ever mentioned the book of the Hasmoneans (the book of the Maccabbees); and this book has not been in the hands of our nation throughout the past two millenia. It was illegal for loyal Jews to have any public writings other than the Scriptures. All secular narratives were forbidden as &#8220;outside books&#8221; (Sefarim Hitzonim)  (Sanhedrin 90 A), and no sacred writing other than the 24 books of the Scriptures  was permitted. It was forbidden to write even prayer-books (Shabbos 115 B), and there is no mention of a written Mishnah or Talmud until the days of the Rabbanan Savorai, after the last of the Amoraim. All historical narrative was contained in the Oral Tradition in the form of carefully-memorized Baraisas, of which a number are found in the Talmud and other compilations, such as Seder Olam and Mid­rashim; but, like all the Oral Tradition, this had been forbidden to put into writing. Even Josephtus states: &#8220;We do not possess an unlimited number of books among us &#8230; but only the books of the Scriptures&#8221; (Contra Apion I, 8), and he states: &#8220;Every one is not permitted of his own accord to be a writer&#8221; (ibid. I, 7). Josephus wrote his own books not for the Jews (vid. Jos. Vita 76). The book of Hasmoneans (including II Hasmoneans) was therefore certainly not composed by any of the Sages or their disciples (who were always the majority of the nation, as testified even by Josephus-Antig. XIII, 10, 5; XIII, 10,6). </p>
<p>The narrative of the book of Hasmoneans concludes soon<br />
after the period of Jochanan Hyrcanus (I Hasmoneans 17: 25 ). Since it goes no further, it obviously was composed at that time (for if it were merely a chronicle of the Syrian wars, it did not need to include the history of Jochanan Hytcanus). This demonstrates that it was written under the regime of the Sadduccee-Hasmonean rulers, of whom Jochanan Hyrcanus was the first; and the writer was under their dominion. Because the Sadduccee regime of Jochanan Hyrcanus forbade the practice of all Rabbinic laws and inflicted punishment (in some instances death) upon those who observed these laws (Antiq. XIII, 10, 6), the writer was careful to omit any mention of the Rabbinical law of kindling the Hannukah lamp. He could therefore make no mention of the miracle of the Menorah which the entire nation knew as the occasion for this Rabbinical law. The practice of Hannukah was not repressed, although it was a Rabbinical edict, for it was the memorial of the glory of the Hasmonean family and the sole justification of their authority. Josephus, who followed the Sadduccee chronicles throughout, also omitted the miracle of the Menorah; but he could not brush off the fact that the entire nation kindled the Hannukah lamps, and he therefore mentions the festival called Lights (Antiq. XII, 7, 7). He gives a lame explanation: &#8220;I suppose the reason (for this name of Lights) was because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us&#8221; (ibid.).<br />
Despite the attempts of the Sadduccees to suppress the<br />
fame of the miracle of the Menorah and the practice of the Mitzvah, the Sages and the nation made every attempt to publicize this miracle; and the universal practice of the people was to kindle the Hannukah lamps at the gates of their homes, in the public thoroughfare (Shabbos 22 A; Bava Kama 62 B).<br />
from &#8220;Tzur Hate-udah&#8221; by Avigdor Miller</p>
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		<title>By: Danya</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-593</link>
		<dc:creator>Danya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-593</guid>
		<description>There's a midrash that says that when God was giving the Torah on Sinai, God translated it into 70 languages, "so that all the nations might hear."  I have no doubt that other peoples and cultures have also heard God, encountered God (which isn't to say anything goes--there's a lot that gets passed off as religion that smells toxic to me, but the faiths with ancient roots generally have developed pretty decent filters for that stuff).  But even though there are different texts that, possibly, reflect the same Divine reality, I still need to be keeping my eyes on my page, on the Torah translated in a language I can hear, understand, comprehend, live, enact.  Over here is work enough, and I'm pretty sure all the solid faith practices will get you to the same place at the end of the day.  Which isn't to say that I believe all the truth claims of all of them (I don't think Jesus is the messiah, I don't think Muhammad's revelation is supposed to supplant all others), which is exactly the point--those aren't my sacred texts.  They don't have to be.  I have my Torah in my language, and the accuracy or not or whatever (not like I know the Divine mind) of other people's connections to and relationships to God aren't my business.  I just work with what I got, and this is what I got. 

Now, if you want to hear why Judaism is the smartest, bestest, coolest religion ever, I'm happy to tell you. But that's a different story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a midrash that says that when God was giving the Torah on Sinai, God translated it into 70 languages, &#8220;so that all the nations might hear.&#8221;  I have no doubt that other peoples and cultures have also heard God, encountered God (which isn&#8217;t to say anything goes&#8211;there&#8217;s a lot that gets passed off as religion that smells toxic to me, but the faiths with ancient roots generally have developed pretty decent filters for that stuff).  But even though there are different texts that, possibly, reflect the same Divine reality, I still need to be keeping my eyes on my page, on the Torah translated in a language I can hear, understand, comprehend, live, enact.  Over here is work enough, and I&#8217;m pretty sure all the solid faith practices will get you to the same place at the end of the day.  Which isn&#8217;t to say that I believe all the truth claims of all of them (I don&#8217;t think Jesus is the messiah, I don&#8217;t think Muhammad&#8217;s revelation is supposed to supplant all others), which is exactly the point&#8211;those aren&#8217;t my sacred texts.  They don&#8217;t have to be.  I have my Torah in my language, and the accuracy or not or whatever (not like I know the Divine mind) of other people&#8217;s connections to and relationships to God aren&#8217;t my business.  I just work with what I got, and this is what I got. </p>
<p>Now, if you want to hear why Judaism is the smartest, bestest, coolest religion ever, I&#8217;m happy to tell you. But that&#8217;s a different story.</p>
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		<title>By: David Kelsey</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-592</link>
		<dc:creator>David Kelsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-592</guid>
		<description>I just don't see how you arrive at a particularist position from the interaction between God and man you are describing.  According to what you are saying, shouldn't we alos be able to get the same thing from any religious text, such as the New Testement or the Koran?  Or any religious text anywhere?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just don&#8217;t see how you arrive at a particularist position from the interaction between God and man you are describing.  According to what you are saying, shouldn&#8217;t we alos be able to get the same thing from any religious text, such as the New Testement or the Koran?  Or any religious text anywhere?</p>
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		<title>By: Danya</title>
		<link>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-591</link>
		<dc:creator>Danya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/12/27/moving-past-two-mindedness/#comment-591</guid>
		<description>David and Anonymous--

For me, I guess the first move I make with any of this is the assumption of God's goodness, God's love, God's--well, ultimately I'm more like Rambam than not, I don't think that these positive descriptors do much.  But my theology doesn't include a God who is like a person but bigger; I assume that descriptions of God's, say, anger or whatever (anything human-like really) are metaphors for a reality that is far beyond human language.  
 
I assume that our sacred texts were written by people.  As such, they reflect that--with a historical mindset, limitations, human language ("the Torah is written in the language of men", etc) and so forth.  This makes it pretty easy to affirm Biblical Criticism, pretty easy to understand how things that seem very far from the Deity that I, anyway, have ever met (in terms of being unjust, etc) got into our sacred books.  On the other hand, there's a potency, a power to these texts that radiates out in such a way that I am perfectly comfortable with the possibility that these texts are, in fact, a record of profound interaction(s?) between the Divine and human beings.  Did Sinai "happen"?  Well, from the tiny, tiny glimmers of the Divine that I've encountered, I can certainly say that there's no reason that it couldn't have--it doesn't sound like an event that was, you know, too big for God.  Did Moshe Rebbeinu speak to God panim al panim?  Did somebody?  From where did this tradition develop?  Someone, somewhere along the way knew something important, profound, extraordinary about Deity and somehow it got into written form.  Does the written text that we have contain a "perfectly accurate" description of those events?  I'm not sure that that's even the right question to be asking.  I don't think of the Torah as journalism.   Does the written text that we have contain the whole story?  Well, maybe.  But probably not.  There are allusions to other books and writings in the Torah (the "book of Jashar", the "book of the wars of the Lord," etc) that we don't have, there are allusions in the Torah to a bigger picture that we don't have (eg Miriam is called a prophet, but we never see her prophesey).  Which doesn't mean that what we do have isn't... reflective of something about God, of an encounter with God, a guide to reaching God, however you want to understand it...  that is more foundational or profound than pretty much any other thing.  That, in my book, gives the texts a level of sanctity that most texts don't have.  

As for why didn't God respond to the Hasmonean atrocities?  I have several answers.  One is that a) see above, God may have said something that didn't get written down  b) the Jewish understanding is that formal prophecy had ended several hundred years before this, so how people heard God from then on may have changed and c) Well, I believe God is communicating all of the time, constantly.  It's just not usually the case that anybody actually truly, truly shows up enough to actually... percieve it.  Would that we did.  I think the world would be in a lot better shape now if we actually did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David and Anonymous&#8211;</p>
<p>For me, I guess the first move I make with any of this is the assumption of God&#8217;s goodness, God&#8217;s love, God&#8217;s&#8211;well, ultimately I&#8217;m more like Rambam than not, I don&#8217;t think that these positive descriptors do much.  But my theology doesn&#8217;t include a God who is like a person but bigger; I assume that descriptions of God&#8217;s, say, anger or whatever (anything human-like really) are metaphors for a reality that is far beyond human language.  </p>
<p>I assume that our sacred texts were written by people.  As such, they reflect that&#8211;with a historical mindset, limitations, human language (&#8221;the Torah is written in the language of men&#8221;, etc) and so forth.  This makes it pretty easy to affirm Biblical Criticism, pretty easy to understand how things that seem very far from the Deity that I, anyway, have ever met (in terms of being unjust, etc) got into our sacred books.  On the other hand, there&#8217;s a potency, a power to these texts that radiates out in such a way that I am perfectly comfortable with the possibility that these texts are, in fact, a record of profound interaction(s?) between the Divine and human beings.  Did Sinai &#8220;happen&#8221;?  Well, from the tiny, tiny glimmers of the Divine that I&#8217;ve encountered, I can certainly say that there&#8217;s no reason that it couldn&#8217;t have&#8211;it doesn&#8217;t sound like an event that was, you know, too big for God.  Did Moshe Rebbeinu speak to God panim al panim?  Did somebody?  From where did this tradition develop?  Someone, somewhere along the way knew something important, profound, extraordinary about Deity and somehow it got into written form.  Does the written text that we have contain a &#8220;perfectly accurate&#8221; description of those events?  I&#8217;m not sure that that&#8217;s even the right question to be asking.  I don&#8217;t think of the Torah as journalism.   Does the written text that we have contain the whole story?  Well, maybe.  But probably not.  There are allusions to other books and writings in the Torah (the &#8220;book of Jashar&#8221;, the &#8220;book of the wars of the Lord,&#8221; etc) that we don&#8217;t have, there are allusions in the Torah to a bigger picture that we don&#8217;t have (eg Miriam is called a prophet, but we never see her prophesey).  Which doesn&#8217;t mean that what we do have isn&#8217;t&#8230; reflective of something about God, of an encounter with God, a guide to reaching God, however you want to understand it&#8230;  that is more foundational or profound than pretty much any other thing.  That, in my book, gives the texts a level of sanctity that most texts don&#8217;t have.  </p>
<p>As for why didn&#8217;t God respond to the Hasmonean atrocities?  I have several answers.  One is that a) see above, God may have said something that didn&#8217;t get written down  b) the Jewish understanding is that formal prophecy had ended several hundred years before this, so how people heard God from then on may have changed and c) Well, I believe God is communicating all of the time, constantly.  It&#8217;s just not usually the case that anybody actually truly, truly shows up enough to actually&#8230; percieve it.  Would that we did.  I think the world would be in a lot better shape now if we actually did.</p>
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