Comments on: back, and scrubby http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/ Danya Ruttenberg's website Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:20:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Danya http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-362 Danya Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:58:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-362 Yeah, what the good R. Suskin said. Couldn't have put it better meself. Yeah, what the good R. Suskin said. Couldn’t have put it better meself.

]]> By: The RetiKhah http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-361 The RetiKhah Sat, 23 Apr 2005 02:51:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-361 I wish I had more time before shabbat to post a good answer, but in short: pesach is not spring cleaning, and most Jews actually do far more than is required. (caveat: first pesach with a baby: I spent the entire previous day picking up cheerios which are chametz for sure, since the child will eat them wherever he finds them, from all over the house). But the idea that one does what makes one feel close to God is not a position which halachic Jews would hold (in which Jews in the Conservative movement should be counted). The point of doing mitzvot is because God told us to do them. It's only a side benefit that some of them may help us get closer to God, but others have other purposes (helping us do the right thing - or maybe we don't know wht the purpose is, or maybe it's part of a system that makes us pay attention to things so that it isn't the specific mitzvah that matters, but that there is a system of them. A number of possible explanations are available). But in any case,one is obligated to do mitzvot whether or not they help us get closer to God (that's what "mitzvah" means - obligation, if you want less loaded language than commandment). But there's another point to be made: not all mitzvot are done in the same way> some of them are active: i.e. you have to do something, like light candles; some of them are passive: you have to refrain from doing something (like eating treif) (that is, I'm referring to positive and negative commandments); but even within positive commandments, there are different ways that they're done: one may be obligated to hear megillah: then one isn't obligated to read it, necessarily. One may eb obligted to be chametz-free, that's not the same as being commanded to clean, which we are not. We are however, obligated to eat matzah. *sigh* Aren't you glad I didn't have more time to write? I wish I had more time before shabbat to post a good answer, but in short: pesach is not spring cleaning, and most Jews actually do far more than is required. (caveat: first pesach with a baby: I spent the entire previous day picking up cheerios which are chametz for sure, since the child will eat them wherever he finds them, from all over the house).
But the idea that one does what makes one feel close to God is not a position which halachic Jews would hold (in which Jews in the Conservative movement should be counted). The point of doing mitzvot is because God told us to do them. It’s only a side benefit that some of them may help us get closer to God, but others have other purposes (helping us do the right thing - or maybe we don’t know wht the purpose is, or maybe it’s part of a system that makes us pay attention to things so that it isn’t the specific mitzvah that matters, but that there is a system of them. A number of possible explanations are available). But in any case,one is obligated to do mitzvot whether or not they help us get closer to God (that’s what “mitzvah” means - obligation, if you want less loaded language than commandment). But there’s another point to be made: not all mitzvot are done in the same way> some of them are active: i.e. you have to do something, like light candles; some of them are passive: you have to refrain from doing something (like eating treif) (that is, I’m referring to positive and negative commandments); but even within positive commandments, there are different ways that they’re done: one may be obligated to hear megillah: then one isn’t obligated to read it, necessarily. One may eb obligted to be chametz-free, that’s not the same as being commanded to clean, which we are not. We are however, obligated to eat matzah. *sigh*
Aren’t you glad I didn’t have more time to write?

]]> By: B2 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-360 B2 Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:26:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-360 I, too ,wish you a hag kasher v'sameach -- sadly, the wife and I are doihng all of our own cleaning. Or, perhaps, happily! Maybe I just need a new outlook! I, too ,wish you a hag kasher v’sameach — sadly, the wife and I are doihng all of our own cleaning. Or, perhaps, happily! Maybe I just need a new outlook!

]]> By: Soferet http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-359 Soferet Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:51:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-359 BS"D Oh yeah - when I was a yeshivah girl we used to hire ourselves out to clean other people's homes for Pesach. I made $900 USD one year, which bought me a fab time in Jordan :) Chag kasher v'same'ach, Danya. BS”D
Oh yeah - when I was a yeshivah girl we used to hire ourselves out to clean other people’s homes for Pesach. I made $900 USD one year, which bought me a fab time in Jordan :) Chag kasher v’same’ach, Danya.

]]> By: jordan http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-358 jordan Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:40:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-358 good point about the difference between this and the Shabbos goy... thanks for the teaching. I hope you didn't feel insulted or attacked. I guess my question, to put it in a less confrontational way, is this: for those Jews who (and this may or may not include you, but it includes me) have trouble believing in the Orthodox/traditional image of a deity who watches and judges us based on how closely we follow His law, what purpose does fulfilling a mitzvah or upholding tradition have beyond being a spiritual practice, something that makes us feel closer to God (whatever that means to you)? Feel free to dismiss this as new-age godless relativism, but I guess my point was not whether or not the law allows us to have other people help us fulfill our mitzvahs, but if there's any point to doing it if we have someone else help us or do it for us. (Then again, my mom always lit the candles and my father always said Kiddush on Fridays. They did it for me, I suppose, and yet I felt part of it. So maybe that answers my question.) and/or is it a ritualized excuse for spring cleaning? and/or is it just a way to be able to prepare food for highly frum folks? and/or is it part of the utopian socialist "end of work" (tongue planted firmly in cheek) I keep reading about whenever I'm unfortunate enough to open an Utne Reader? no, but in all seriousness you are contributing to the economy in a country that isn't doing so well on that front. sorry for the extended rant, but I'm just wondering what you're thinking is on these issues, as an aspiring rabbi coming from a fairly liberal background. good point about the difference between this and the Shabbos goy… thanks for the teaching. I hope you didn’t feel insulted or attacked.

I guess my question, to put it in a less confrontational way, is this: for those Jews who (and this may or may not include you, but it includes me) have trouble believing in the Orthodox/traditional image of a deity who watches and judges us based on how closely we follow His law, what purpose does fulfilling a mitzvah or upholding tradition have beyond being a spiritual practice, something that makes us feel closer to God (whatever that means to you)?

Feel free to dismiss this as new-age godless relativism, but I guess my point was not whether or not the law allows us to have other people help us fulfill our mitzvahs, but if there’s any point to doing it if we have someone else help us or do it for us.

(Then again, my mom always lit the candles and my father always said Kiddush on Fridays. They did it for me, I suppose, and yet I felt part of it. So maybe that answers my question.)

and/or is it a ritualized excuse for spring cleaning?

and/or is it just a way to be able to prepare food for highly frum folks?

and/or is it part of the utopian socialist “end of work” (tongue planted firmly in cheek) I keep reading about whenever I’m unfortunate enough to open an Utne Reader? no, but in all seriousness you are contributing to the economy in a country that isn’t doing so well on that front.

sorry for the extended rant, but I’m just wondering what you’re thinking is on these issues, as an aspiring rabbi coming from a fairly liberal background.

]]> By: Danya http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-357 Danya Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:58:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-357 Ack, you're right. My error and fuzzy brain today-taaseh lo min ha isui wasn't the principle I should have invoked. Better examples of what I was trying to say abount, but right now I'm a bit bogged down in daily details right now. When did I accumulate all of these pieces of paper and why didn't I recycle them months ago??? Ack, you’re right. My error and fuzzy brain today-taaseh lo min ha isui wasn’t the principle I should have invoked. Better examples of what I was trying to say abount, but right now I’m a bit bogged down in daily details right now. When did I accumulate all of these pieces of paper and why didn’t I recycle them months ago???

]]> By: The Rabbi's Kid http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-356 The Rabbi's Kid Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:53:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-356 Danya, Someone else can build a succah for you. Taaseh velo min haasuy refers to the building of the succah itself, that it should be actually built, as opposed to just appearing (classic case from the mishnah is clearing out the inside of the haystack to make a succah). TRK Danya,

Someone else can build a succah for you. Taaseh velo min haasuy refers to the building of the succah itself, that it should be actually built, as opposed to just appearing (classic case from the mishnah is clearing out the inside of the haystack to make a succah).

TRK

]]> By: Danya http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-355 Danya Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:42:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-355 Hiring someone to help clean your house is not the same as having a Shabbos goy. First of all, I am permitted to clean now--I just don't have the time or, frankly, health (I have RSI I have to keep an eye on--scrubbing stoves is not a great idea for me) to do it myself. It's not trying to benefit from work done that I'm not supposed to be doing, which is what a Shabbos goy is. Secondly, there are mitzvot that one is required to do directly oneself--building a succah, for example (or maybe it's just putting on the scach? Don't remember)--a halakhic catagory called "taaseh lo min ha asui". Cleaning for Pesach is not one of them. There's no reason, here, not to ask for help if one needs it........ Hiring someone to help clean your house is not the same as having a Shabbos goy. First of all, I am permitted to clean now–I just don’t have the time or, frankly, health (I have RSI I have to keep an eye on–scrubbing stoves is not a great idea for me) to do it myself. It’s not trying to benefit from work done that I’m not supposed to be doing, which is what a Shabbos goy is. Secondly, there are mitzvot that one is required to do directly oneself–building a succah, for example (or maybe it’s just putting on the scach? Don’t remember)–a halakhic catagory called “taaseh lo min ha asui”. Cleaning for Pesach is not one of them. There’s no reason, here, not to ask for help if one needs it……..

]]> By: jordan http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-354 jordan Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:28:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-354 hmmmm... this is kinda like the idea of a "Shabbas goy"... it makes sense if you take the rules literally but you're kinda losing the spirit of the thing. If you don't do it yourself, I believe, the "mitzvah" becomes mechanistic, pure "law" w/out much spiritual content. But I've never kashered a house for Pesach so take my opinion with a heaping pile of salt, please. Toh dah. on the other hand, like those laws in NJ that prevent you from pumping your own gasoline, this creates jobs.... which, from a socialist perspective, is a good thing. eventually, it is quite clear, all work will be automated and we'll have to create all "work", or alternatively find something better to do. but I'm not ideologically rigid enough to identify as a "socialist". anyway, have a beautiful Pesach. hmmmm… this is kinda like the idea of a “Shabbas goy”… it makes sense if you take the rules literally but you’re kinda losing the spirit of the thing. If you don’t do it yourself, I believe, the “mitzvah” becomes mechanistic, pure “law” w/out much spiritual content. But I’ve never kashered a house for Pesach so take my opinion with a heaping pile of salt, please. Toh dah.

on the other hand, like those laws in NJ that prevent you from pumping your own gasoline, this creates jobs…. which, from a socialist perspective, is a good thing. eventually, it is quite clear, all work will be automated and we’ll have to create all “work”, or alternatively find something better to do. but I’m not ideologically rigid enough to identify as a “socialist”.

anyway, have a beautiful Pesach.

]]> By: The Rabbi's Kid http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-353 The Rabbi's Kid Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:59:00 +0000 http://danyaruttenberg.net/2005/04/20/back-and-scrubby/#comment-353 Good luck with the cleaning and remember dust is not chometz. repeat the mantra over and over again. TRK Good luck with the cleaning and remember dust is not chometz. repeat the mantra over and over again.

TRK

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